[Bristol] Mixer: come funziona?

Sul pannello principale di bristol, in basso a dx, c'é il pulsante "mixer". L'interfaccia del mixer é veramente spettacolare ma come funziona? C'ho smanettato in tutti i modi ma non riesco a farlo interagire con niente. Non mi appare nemmeno nell'elenco delle connessioni (audio / midi). Ogni tanto mi crasha pure...

Versione di Bristol: 0.60.3;
gui per Bristol: >=0.60.1;

La versione di jack (che faccio partire mediante Qjacktl) é:

Codice:

jackdmp 1.9.8
Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
Copyright 2004-2011 Grame.
jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
jackdmp version 1.9.8 tmpdir /dev/shm protocol 8

P.S.: ma non esiste una guida o un manuale per l'uso? su google non ho trovato nulla...

P.S. 2: Visto la quantità di strumenti che offre Bristol, suggerisco di separare eventuali discussioni con il formato [Bristol] Strumento: domanda [eventualmente RISOLTO]

EDIT: Ecco l'output da terminale (dall'avvio al crash)

Codice:

jackstats found -rate 96000 -count 512
checking availability of TCP port 27640
using port 27640
starting logging thread [@1336891415.825774]
Copyright (c) by Nick Copeland <nickycopeland@hotmail.com> 1996,2011
This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `<Ctrl> w'.
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; type `<Ctrl> g' for details of GPL terms.
starting logging thread [@1336891415.826061]
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.099874] starting console logging [@1336891415.825774]
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100295] bristol version 0.60.9
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100310] bristol
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100327]    -rate 96000
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100339]    -count 512
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100350]    -audio jack
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100366]    -midi alsa
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100378]    -autoconn
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100392]    -multi4
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100408]    -mixer
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100424]    -port 27640
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100438] jsm will use 'startBristol -audio jack -midi alsa -autoconn -multi4 -mixer'
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.100450] generate bandlimited waveforms(31, 12, 84, 1.50, 0.80, 96000)
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.099996] starting console logging [@1336891415.826061]
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.100839] mixer emulation defaults:
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.100907]    -voices  1
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.100983]    -retrig
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101053]    -lvel
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101112]    -hnp
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101168]    -wwf
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101225]    -detune  0
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101281]    -gain    2
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101337]    -pwd    1
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101394]    -glide  5
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101450]    -curve  520
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101506] The bristol mixer is not an operational emulator
May 13 08:43:35 brighton [0.101562] brighton version 0.60.9
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.102183] Fixing samplerate at 96000
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.102205] rescheduled thread: 40
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.103724] midi interface: bristol
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.103793] bristolMidiOpen(localhost, 801023)
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.103852] Opened listening control socket: 27640
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.103912] returning handle 0, flags 80000020, fd 4
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.103969] opened control socket
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.104043] midiOpen: 27640(100)
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.104116] bristolMidiOpen(bristol, 101)
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.104173] bristolMidiSeqOpen(bristol)
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.108370] Client ID = 131
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.108412] Queue ID = 2
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.108425] returning handle 1, flags 100, fd 6
May 13 08:43:35 bristol  [0.108437] opened midi device bristol
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100265]  brighton
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100317]    -audio jack
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100324]    -midi alsa
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100330]    -autoconn
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100336]    -multi4
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100341]    -mixer
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100347]    -port 27640
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.100468] starting event management thread
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.101071] connected to :0.0
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.101090] brighton 0x6ce420 965 720
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.101138] display is 1280 by 1024 pixels (0, 0)
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.101188] Window is w 1280, h 1024, d 24, 0 0 0
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.101867] Using DirectColor display
May 13 08:43:36 brighton [1.124194] Initialise the mix link to bristol: 0x21339a0
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.200628] waiting for window creation
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.200691] opened GUI midi handles: 0, 0
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.219481] createVu(bitmaps/images/vu.xpm)
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.396710] user r 1000/1000, e 1000/1000
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.396772] Read Configuration: mixer (null)
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.454963] configureVu()
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.455098] vuMeter width = 152, height = 51
May 13 08:43:37 brighton [1.611206] going operational 0x2126050 0x21339a0
*** buffer overflow detected ***: brighton terminated
======= Backtrace: =========
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(__fortify_fail+0x37)[0x7fd528ed0007]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(+0x107f00)[0x7fd528ecef00]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(+0x107369)[0x7fd528ece369]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(_IO_default_xsputn+0xdd)[0x7fd528e42bcd]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(_IO_vfprintf+0x256e)[0x7fd528e10bee]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(__vsprintf_chk+0x94)[0x7fd528ece404]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(__sprintf_chk+0x7d)[0x7fd528ece34d]
brighton[0x428303]
brighton[0x417f99]
brighton[0x4181cf]
brighton[0x415f00]
/usr/lib/bristol/libbrighton.so.0(+0x43fb)[0x7fd5295be3fb]
/usr/lib/bristol/libbrighton.so.0(+0x4933)[0x7fd5295be933]
/usr/lib/bristol/libbrighton.so.0(+0xb1b7)[0x7fd5295c51b7]
/usr/lib/bristol/libbrighton.so.0(brightonButtonPress+0x58)[0x7fd5295c2328]
/usr/lib/bristol/libbrighton.so.0(brightonEventLoop+0x88)[0x7fd5295c2a98]
brighton[0x408397]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0(+0x7e9a)[0x7fd52918be9a]
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(clone+0x6d)[0x7fd528eb94bd]
======= Memory map: ========
00400000-004a3000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 138387                            /usr/bin/brighton
006a3000-006a4000 r--p 000a3000 08:06 138387                            /usr/bin/brighton
006a4000-0076e000 rw-p 000a4000 08:06 138387                            /usr/bin/brighton
0076e000-0077d000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
02126000-0230d000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0                                  [heap]
7fd518000000-7fd51825c000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd51825c000-7fd51c000000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd520000000-7fd520021000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd520021000-7fd524000000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd524c5d000-7fd525d03000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd525d03000-7fd525d08000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 140725                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3.1.0
7fd525d08000-7fd525f07000 ---p 00005000 08:06 140725                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3.1.0
7fd525f07000-7fd525f08000 r--p 00004000 08:06 140725                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3.1.0
7fd525f08000-7fd525f09000 rw-p 00005000 08:06 140725                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3.1.0
7fd525f09000-7fd525f12000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 140743                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1.3.0
7fd525f12000-7fd526111000 ---p 00009000 08:06 140743                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1.3.0
7fd526111000-7fd526112000 r--p 00008000 08:06 140743                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1.3.0
7fd526112000-7fd526113000 rw-p 00009000 08:06 140743                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1.3.0
7fd526113000-7fd52611c000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 140717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
7fd52611c000-7fd52631b000 ---p 00009000 08:06 140717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
7fd52631b000-7fd52631c000 r--p 00008000 08:06 140717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
7fd52631c000-7fd52631d000 rw-p 00009000 08:06 140717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1.0.2
7fd52631d000-7fd52631e000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd52631e000-7fd526b1e000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd526b1e000-7fd526b1f000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd526b1f000-7fd52731f000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd52731f000-7fd527324000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 140721                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6.0.0
7fd527324000-7fd527523000 ---p 00005000 08:06 140721                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6.0.0
7fd527523000-7fd527524000 r--p 00004000 08:06 140721                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6.0.0
7fd527524000-7fd527525000 rw-p 00005000 08:06 140721                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6.0.0
7fd527525000-7fd527527000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 140710                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6.0.0
7fd527527000-7fd527726000 ---p 00002000 08:06 140710                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6.0.0
7fd527726000-7fd527727000 r--p 00001000 08:06 140710                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6.0.0
7fd527727000-7fd527728000 rw-p 00002000 08:06 140710                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6.0.0
7fd527728000-7fd52773d000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 1061477                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1
7fd52773d000-7fd52793c000 ---p 00015000 08:06 1061477                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1
7fd52793c000-7fd52793d000 r--p 00014000 08:06 1061477                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1
7fd52793d000-7fd52793e000 rw-p 00015000 08:06 1061477                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1
7fd52793e000-7fd527a20000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 133717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.16
7fd527a20000-7fd527c1f000 ---p 000e2000 08:06 133717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.16
7fd527c1f000-7fd527c27000 r--p 000e1000 08:06 133717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.16
7fd527c27000-7fd527c29000 rw-p 000e9000 08:06 133717                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.16
7fd527c29000-7fd527c3e000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
7fd527c3e000-7fd527c45000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 1059791                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt-2.15.so
7fd527c45000-7fd527e44000 ---p 00007000 08:06 1059791                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt-2.15.so
7fd527e44000-7fd527e45000 r--p 00006000 08:06 1059791                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt-2.15.so
7fd527e45000-7fd527e46000 rw-p 00007000 08:06 1059791                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt-2.15.so
7fd527e46000-7fd527e48000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 1059801                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl-2.15.so
7fd527e48000-7fd528048000 ---p 00002000 08:06 1059801                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl-2.15.so
7fd528048000-7fd528049000 r--p 00002000 08:06 1059801                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl-2.15.so
7fd528049000-7fd52804a000 rw-p 00003000 08:06 1059801                    /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl-2.15.so
7fd52804a000-7fd528067000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 141414                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1.1.0
7fd528067000-7fd528266000 ---p 0001d000 08:06 141414                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1.1.0
7fd528266000-7fd528267000 r--p 0001c000 08:06 141414                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1.1.0
7fd528267000-7fd528268000 rw-p 0001d000 08:06 141414                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1.1.0
7fd528268000-7fd5282a9000 r-xp 00000000 08:06 141073                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0
7fd5282a9000-7fd5284a9000 ---p 00041000 08:06 141073                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0
7fd5284a9000-7fd5284ab000 r--p 00041000 08:06 141073                    /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [30.247124] init watchdog exception
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [30.247168] terminate MIDI signalling
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [30.247175] audio thread failed: exiting.
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [30.247194] GUI id 3277 returned 134
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [31.116993] bristolMidiSeqClose()
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [31.117058] midiThread exiting
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [31.117193] midithread exited
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [31.117207] bristol parent exiting
May 13 08:44:06 bristol  [31.117212] terminating logging thread

... interessante .. appena posso ci guardo .. per vedere da me cosa combina

... questo non sò se può essere d'aiuto

Dunque .. sono su Ubuntu studio 12.04
A me non appare a dx in basso l'opzione mixer .. ma forse non dò il comando giusto .. io lo faccio partire con StartBristol -jack

Codice:

rossano@ubuntuross-studio:~$ startBristol -jack
jackstats found -rate 44100 -count 256
checking availability of TCP port 18478
using port 18478
starting logging thread [@1336917937.878003]
Copyright (c) by Nick Copeland <nickycopeland@hotmail.com> 1996,2010
This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `<Ctrl> w'.
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; type `<Ctrl> g' for details of GPL terms.
starting logging thread [@1336917937.882968]
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101489] starting console logging [@1336917937.878003]
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101758] bristol version 0.60.8
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101778] bristol
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101794]    -rate 44100
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101811]    -count 256
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101827]    -jack
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101844]    -port 18478
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101860] jsm will use 'startBristol -jack'
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101876] generate bandlimited waveforms(31, 12, 84, 1.50, 0.80, 44100)
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101894] Fixing samplerate at 44100
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.101913] rescheduled thread: 40
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100254] starting console logging [@1336917937.882968]
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100374] emulation defaults:
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100391]    -voices  32
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100406]    -detune  0
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100420]    -gain    2
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100435]    -pwd    2
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100450]    -glide  5
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100464]    -curve  175
May 13 16:05:37 brighton [0.100479] brighton version 0.60.8
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107097] midi jack: 128.1
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107215] bristolMidiOpen(localhost, 801023)
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107233] Opened listening control socket: 18478
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107249] returning handle 0, flags 80000020, fd 4
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107299] opened control socket
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107317] midiOpen: 18478(100)
May 13 16:05:37 bristol  [0.107333] opened midi device 128.1
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.101472]  brighton
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.101521]    -jack
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.101537]    -port 18478
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.101553] starting event management thread
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.102314] connected to :0.0
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.102361] brighton 0x81085c0 765 400
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.102378] display is 1280 by 1024 pixels (0, 0)
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.103841] Window is w 1280, h 1024, d 24, 0 0 0
May 13 16:05:38 brighton [1.103911] Using DirectColor display
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.119069] Initialise the hammondB3 link to bristol: 0xa16d188
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.119173] bristolMidiOpen(localhost, 4023)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.119285] hostname is localhost, bristol
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.119796] TCP port: 18478
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.125357] Accepted connection from 0 (4) onto 1 (6)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.120637] Connected to the bristol control socket: 6 (dev=0)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.120860] returning handle 0, flags 20, fd 6
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.121020] bristolengine already active (0)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.200672] opened GUI midi handles: 0, 0
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.379884] rescheduled thread: 65
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.379975] registering jack interface: bristol
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.535345] initialising one hammond sound
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.630030] bristolMidiOpen(bristolmt, 203)
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.630085] bristolMidiJackOpen(bristolmt, 2, 203)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626249] bristolMidiOpen(localhost, 6023)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626360] hostname is localhost, bristol
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626550] TCP port: 18478
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626717] Connected to the bristol control socket: 7 (dev=1)
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626758] returning handle 1, flags 20, fd 7
May 13 16:05:39 brighton [1.626790] bristolengine already active (1)
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.631656] Accepted connection from 0 (4) onto 3 (8)
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.641268] reused jack registration
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.641331] returning handle 2, flags ffffffff, fd -1
May 13 16:05:39 bristol  [1.976544] initialising one hammond second manual
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494193] Found port system:playback_1
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494271] Found port system:playback_2
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494289] Found port system:playback_3
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494304] Found port system:playback_4
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494318] Found port system:playback_5
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494333] Found port system:playback_6
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494347] Found port system:playback_7
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494362] Found port system:playback_8
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494376] Found port system:playback_9
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494390] Found port system:playback_10
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494405] Found port system:capture_1
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494419] Found port system:capture_2
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494433] Found port system:capture_3
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494448] Found port system:capture_4
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494462] Found port system:capture_5
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494476] Found port system:capture_6
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494491] Found port system:capture_7
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494505] Found port system:capture_8
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494520] Found port system:capture_9
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494534] Found port system:capture_10
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494548] Found port system:capture_11
May 13 16:05:40 bristol  [2.494563] Found port system:capture_12
May 13 16:05:40 brighton [2.639142] user r 1000/1000, e 1000/1000
May 13 16:05:40 brighton [2.639246] Read Configuration: hammondB3 (null)
May 13 16:05:40 brighton [2.876315] going operational: 0xa162028, 0xa16d188
May 13 16:06:31 bristol  [54.005003] removing B3 sound
May 13 16:06:32 bristol  [54.205285] empty audio list, cleaning up
May 13 16:06:32 bristol  [54.208208] removing hammond sound
May 13 16:06:32 bristol  [54.223265] audio thread returned: exiting.
May 13 16:06:32 bristol  [54.223324] unregistering jack interface: 0xe9c7c0->0x8405058
May 13 16:06:32 brighton [54.255520] no data in tcp buffer for 1 (close)


Inoltre in Jack non appare nulla in midi e in alsa pertanto non posso connetterlo alla tastiera .. posso solo suonarlo con il mouse

Il comando che do io (come da guida di senbee) é "monobristol" (nella casella che ti appare premendo alt+F2)...

provate a dare un occhio qua:
http://forum.ubuntu-it.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=278719&start=1000
dal terzo post in giù...era uno dei motivi che mi aveva portato a pensare che quella discussione, ordinata su questo forum come si deve, potrebbe essere una risorsa notevole....!